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Gilgamech's avatar

This is a really good point you make here.

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Mr. Raven's avatar

Good analysis, I concur 100 percent. You are one of the people who convinced me not to vote for him due to his support of the evil genocidal criminals in Israel. But his humor and brashness is a breath of fresh air in the fetid halls of empire.

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Ben_H's avatar

What is America? Who is the average American?.... American TV (for example) I'm not sure how this torture is even legal. The average man in America (and many other places too) was molested for years and years by this maniacal greed-driven system. You can see by trump's facial gestures that he is addressing a retarded society. We are looking at a criminal system that has to be maintained as such for the continued benefit of the big corporations. After the rot has taken hold it is not surprising the American public likes him. He is probably more entertaining to them.

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Ohio Barbarian's avatar

We do have a criminal system. It's called kleptocracy, and Trump is one of the more successful kleptocrats, especially in the real estate and entertainment fields. He just has a sense of humor, something sadly lacking in liberal circles. Yes, he's more entertaining!

But a "retarded" society? If you mean our development has been stunted due to capitalism and other kleptocratic forces, I agree with you. If you mean Americans are stupid people, then you'll get countless examples of other peoples proving they are every bit as cruel and stupid as we have been, and sometimes are or have been far worse.

There is one glaring example of that right now on an insignificant, narrow strip of land on the eastern Mediterranean.

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Ben_H's avatar

I meant it exactly as you said it: "due to capitalism and other kleptocratic forces". I said the same: "molested for years and years by this maniacal greed-driven system".

For me Israel and America are the SAME system. Legally they are 2 entities but it’s same pockets and same management, in other words the same system.

You confirm "your" system is criminal but is this what the average American feels too? Do they even care? Probably not. People just stuff their faces with anything they get given from a figure of authority.

I can’t avoid remembering a scene from this unbelievable film (a must watch!):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czOpDN8Knr4

For many people this is just funny but it’s incredible that this counts as funny. Don't get me wrong, I find it funny also, but it’s not meant to be funny,,, and yet it is... funny.

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djean111's avatar

I think it is always funny when the unvarnished awful truth is delivered, and not many realize that it actually affects their own lives. Sort of like Jeff Daniels speech on Newsroom about why America is not the greatest country in the world. Every word was spot on, and few took it seriously. Irony - Daniels is quite conservative and hated giving that speech. But hey, Harris' hubby got a nanny pregnant and sometime after that, slapped a girlfriend real hard in Cannes. And AOC says he is a manly man. Hillary wears that stupid pink pussy hat when she should have been wearing a blue dress, because she literally kept lawyers on retainer in order to get rid of Bill's bimbo eruptions (that's what they called the women he had relations with) by discrediting them or paying them off. That's part of the reason I could never vote Dem again. Plus the Dems politicized Covid. As they politicize everything. (Still un-jabbed, happily.) And a "Democratic" Party does not say they have the right to pick the candidate in secret, as their lawyers testified in court. As they did this time. I hate that they use the word Democrat at all.

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Ben_H's avatar

Usually when members of the public are doing something wrong they are ‘reprimanded’ and the system normally closes the gap so that people will not get used to a long-term situation whereby things are done in the wrong way.

But when our political system goes wrong not much is being done about it. Rather than fixing it we are invited to publicly laugh about it and so rehabilitate the situation by laughter. You can say that even this is funny too but clearly things are not good. One would think that this method of laughing-away things would have its limit at some point. Giggle your way to sanity or to madness?

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Mr. Raven's avatar

Meh, Israel controls our government though AIPAC, don't blame Americans for problems in a captured system.

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Ben_H's avatar

America seems to like being "captured"... If America can engage in multiple wars continuously from WW2 all over the world then it could have dealt with some neocon garbage if it wanted, but ...

For the record: I didn't blame Americans but the American system.

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Ohio Barbarian's avatar

That's a really good question. I think the majority of us DO know the system is criminal at some level; we just don't know what we can do about it at the moment, except to throw a monkey wrench into the system by not voting for Harris.

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Ben_H's avatar

The way I see it is that there is a dynamic here between a corrupt elite and corrupt society. They "bribe" us but we keep taking the bait (even when we know). Same with commercial stuff: Apple creates a new update for the iPhone and people sleep outside the store (not even knowing why they do it) to get the new phone the minute the shop opens. This dynamic is not regulated (legally, morally) and the sticky situation goes on and on. If people KNOW there is money to be made by selling something (vitamin pills or whatever) there will be those who will sell it and there will be those who fall for it. Until we crack this and create a more robust system these things will be exploited and in fact are part and parcel of the fabric of western society and the way everting works. IIt goes from retail to the business of wars. So it seems to me.

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Ohio Barbarian's avatar

Contemplate the name of my Substack. It will take a real revolution to transform our country from a vicious, collapsing empire into a mostly peaceful republic.

Most Americans still hope and wish that things will just somehow change for the better, but deep down I think they know they won't. Obama's betrayals, Trump's failures in his first term, the disastrous Biden Administration, all prove that the system no longer works for most of us.

When the best argument of the leading presidential candidates is that the other one will screw us over even more than they will, you know the system's fucked up.

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Ben_H's avatar

I fully agree. Are you saying both sides (elite & public) won't solve this peacefully? Elite can't do it as this will be admission of gross criminality and public can't do it as they can’t unite on an alternative to social existence? What follows is gradual decent into unknown levels of disorder?

I think the first few casualties may sober people up, that find a way forward is better than internal wars spreading all over the West.

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John Mendelssohn's avatar

Have a beer with Donald Trump, but not with La Harris, who, unthinkably, doesn't drink beer? WELL, NEITHER DOES THE MANGO MONSTROSITY. And for fuck's sake. he endears himself to you by posing in a garbage truck within a few hours in either direction of calling for a fellow American to face a military tribunal, or even a firing squad, for daring to object to, for instance, his having stirred up a riot at which five people died and many, many more injured? And now you've got people, below, saying "really good point" and "good analysis"? Sometimes I feel trapped in an absurd bad dream.

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Mr. Raven's avatar

"calling for a fellow American to face a military tribunal, or even a firing squad"

I will not be voting for Trump as I said above, but the whole firing squad thing is a corporate media lie, what he actually said was Liz Cheney should have to hold a gun and fight in the wars she advocates for, a very different statement, and one I concur with. Note this is Newsweek, which has an anti-Trump bias, but at least they give the full quote. Up your media consumption game.

"Speaking to former Fox News host Tucker Carlson in Glendale, Arizona, the Republican presidential candidate said: "She's a radical war hawk. Let's put her with the rifle standing there with nine barrels shooting at her. OK, let's see how she feels about it. You know, when the guns are trained on her face."

He also suggested that if it were up to Cheney, the United States would be involved in conflicts across "50 different countries."

Trump framed the discussion as a critique of politicians who advocate for military intervention from the safety of Washington, D.C.

"You know they're all war hawks when they're sitting in Washington in a nice building saying, oh gee, well, let's send 10,000 troops right into the mouth of the enemy," Trump said."

https://www.newsweek.com/cheney-trump-guns-face-dictator-responds-1978492

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John Mendelssohn's avatar

My bad.

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Mr. Raven's avatar

Actually admits error, faints!

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John Mendelssohn's avatar

I beg your pardon. When do I not admit to errors? You might wish to note that I objected to the reaction to Trump's Hitler's general speech, which was portrayed as an endorsement of Nazism, but might just as well have been construed as an endorsement of blind loyalty. All through the campaign I've been objecting to deliberate distortions like that.

For the record, my belief that Donald Trump is a fecal stain on American history holds firm, as does my incredulity that any sensible person could consider voting for him. And this does NOT mean that I am enthusiastic about La Harris. The one thing I like about her is that she's vapid, but apparently not a malignantly narcissistic, delusional, moronic rapist, xenophobe, and fascist.

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Mr. Raven's avatar

All of these people from both the mainstream parties are either war criminals, or express overt support for war crimes. Do you understand that? A war criminal that goes down more easily is arguably worse, as that makes them appealing to bland middle manager suburban types, and there are lot of those people in this country. Woke anti blah, blah, blah ism politics is just a pretty rainbow colored string tied on the fetid package of imperialism and crony "late" capitalist exploitation and decay.

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John Mendelssohn's avatar

Thank you for your gracious apology for the “faints” remark, which unfairly suggests that I never admit to a mistake. Is your condescending “Do you understand that?” offered as compensation? If so, I regretfully decline.

Which war criminals are we discussing? Am I appalled by La Harris’s mealy-mouthedness about Israel? I am indeed.

Oddly, we are on the same page in some matters. Imperialism and exploitative capitalism aren’t my favorite things either.

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djean111's avatar

"The one thing I like about her is that she's vapid, but apparently not a malignantly narcissistic, delusional, moronic rapist, xenophobe, and fascist."

Oh, I think she is all of those things, she was all of those things when she was AG in California, and, IMO, will be all of those things if "elected".

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John Mendelssohn's avatar

Is she advocating using the military to suppress dissent, madam? And may I know whom she is alleged to have raped? And, while there, for which ethnicity she holds an ugly irrational hatred? Also, those she most assuredly spews her share of utter bullshit, as so many politicians do, can you please cite an example of her just having made up statistics on the spot, as your boy does implacably? Does she characterize an outpouring xenophobic dread and hatred as a “lovefest”? Is it your perception that she’s devoid of empathy? It isn’t my own. I look forward to hearing from you.

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Alan Hodge's avatar

In response to the firing squad horseshit, I propose a Make America Literate Again campaign, which frees the cult-minded from their inability to process language.

Nope. No idea how to accomplish that. For sure facts, logic, and literal transcriptions aren’t making a scratch. But don’t we have to try?

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Mr. Raven's avatar

Exactly this.

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John Mendelssohn's avatar

Great idea. And as poster boy for the Make America Literate Again campaign, may I nominate Donald Trump, that great admirer of the Bible, which we know for sure he recognizes as comprising two testaments? A man who has never been known to actually read a book for pleasure. I mean even Ronald fucking Reagan managed Zane Grey!

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djean111's avatar

We would also have to fumigate $MSM. And the owners and editorial boards of much of the print world that still exists.

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Ohio Barbarian's avatar

Hear, hear! I take comfort in Lincoln's "You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time."

He oughta know. He's the only President who suspended the right of habeas corpus until Obama did it again.

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Ohio Barbarian's avatar

That's because you ARE trapped in an absurd bad dream, created for you by the corporate media, the liberal establishment, and the Democratic Party. You gave yourself away when you said Trump instigated January 6, when we know full well Nancy Pelosi set that one up. She's on video, you know.

It does not matter whether or not Trump actually drinks beer. It doesn't even matter that his staff made sure that garbage truck was SPOTLESS because Trump is such a germaphobe. What matter is what most people feel.

Blaming voters for turning to a candidate with whom they feel comfortable, who doesn't condescend to them, is like blaming a flower for turning to the sun.

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John Mendelssohn's avatar

I never tire of hearing how Jan 6 was all Pelosi’s fault. But now, knowing She’s On Video, I accept that Trump watching the mayhem on television for three hours or however long it was without lifting a finger to calm the mob was absolutely her fault. You’re right about voters voting for those who make them feel good. That was the otherwise excellent Bernie Sanders’ downfall — always making his listener feel as though being scolded. I’m no great fan of the Democratic party (and I commend you for not having omitted the -ic! :-), but given that the Republican Party has embraced the most ghastly candidate in American political history, I’m still pretty sure I prefer it.

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Ohio Barbarian's avatar

Trump? The most ghastly candidate in American history? How is Trump any worse than any of the last four winning candidates, much less the most revolting of the losers--Hillary Clinton?

How is Trump worse than George W. Bush? Remember Afghanistan? Remember Iraq? Remember the FUCKING PATRIOT ACT? Trump did nothing that came anywhere close to just those things, unless you LIKE imperial war and the suspension of our civil liberties.

And if you are voting for Kamala, that means you do.

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John Mendelssohn's avatar

No, I don’t. At all. I vote for Kamala for exactly one reason — that she isn’t Trump. Bush? Yes, awful. Moronic as he was, he’s probably 20 IQ points clear of Trump, and I thought he was capable of basic human empathy.

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Mr. Raven's avatar

You assholes would vote for Pol Pot because he isn't Trump, it's a mind stunning level of belief in vapid corporate media propaganda.

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Ohio Barbarian's avatar

Thank you. You have Trump Derangement Syndrome really bad. Please seek professional help. All you'll get here is richly deserved scorn.

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Alan Hodge's avatar

No sensible citizen omits the ick from either party.

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djean111's avatar

Trump just does not drink alcohol at all. If you are implying that Trump thinks beer is beneath him. Granted, Kamala does seem to enjoy her wine, but the intent of the remark is that, IMO, one could not sit comfortably with Kamala and have a conversation, beer or no beer. Which is why she won't go on Rogan's podcast - everything must be rigidly controlled for her performance.

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John Mendelssohn's avatar

I don’t drink beer either. Don’t like the taste. It tastes like something you’d wash shirts in. Too bad for me and Donald and an American man who doesn’t froth at the idea of a tall cold one isn’t a real man.

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djean111's avatar

Okay, that's just unhinged or something. And not the gist of my reply. Whatever, done now. Donald just does not drink alcohol, and that has nothing to do with "being a real man". But I see that fucking the nanny is being a real man, or so says AOC. What a dumpster the Dems have become. Over and out.

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John Mendelssohn's avatar

Good riddance, madam. You’re a humorless doctrinaire.

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Mr. Raven's avatar

That's a good one, kettle meet pot black. Now call me a racist or something for describing a literal black pot as is the way of neo-con woke fusionists.

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Alan Hodge's avatar

Your first impulse is to stereotype every person who challenges the hyperventilated fantasy narrative of a so-called press no literate person would trust to report the time correctly.

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John Mendelssohn's avatar

That’s naughty, inaccurate thing to say, Alan, and I know you don’t mean it.

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Mr. Raven's avatar

It's literal what you did here, own it.

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The Passionate Progressive's avatar

Every word you say is true....I for one was originally going to sit this one out....but having observed Jill Stein (whom I supported in 2012 and 2016) get some visibility for her opposition to genocide, I decided to go out and support the stand against genocide, settler colonialism, centuries of American foreign policy and the ongoing Democratic Party propaganda...I feel it's the least I can do....

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Mr. Raven's avatar

If I vote at all which I doubt, I'd vote for Stein for Prez and straight ticket Republican down ticket, make of that what you will. Paleo-cons do not fit in easy political boxes being both anti-intervention and socially conservative.

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Ohio Barbarian's avatar

No, y'all don't fit into any of our prescribed political boxes. It's one of the things I like about you.

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Ohio Barbarian's avatar

If I lived in a swing state I'd vote for Stein, and I won't criticize anyone who does no matter where they live.

The thing is, I'm not in a swing state, and I can't take a political party seriously that only rears its academic head once every four years.

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djean111's avatar

Jill Stein running again is that definition of insanity. The way things are in the US - REALISTICALLY - it would make more of an impact if Jesse Ventura ran, except I doubt he wants the job.

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Ohio Barbarian's avatar

The Greens could have had Jesse in 2020, but he was either unwilling or unable to subject himself to all of their petty little identity politics litmus tests. They could have had Cornel West this year, but he bowed out after the Greens' LGBTQ faction demanded a meeting to "straighten him out" on the transgender thing.

Either one would have gotten more votes than Jill Stein, and Ventura might have even carried a state or two. This is why I can't take the Greens seriously.

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Mr. Raven's avatar

I am pretty meh on Cornell West he did not acquit himself well when Jimmy Dore interviewed him.

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Carina Malatesta's avatar

I watched him on Joe Rogan and he did seem personable. He was so calm wondered if he smoked with Joe 😅

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djean111's avatar

I think Trump enjoys a good conversation that is not land mined with gotchas.

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Ohio Barbarian's avatar

Even if he didn't, just being in the same room with Joe Rogan is guaranteed to cause a contact high every bit as much as being in the same room with Willie Nelson.

I know. I smoked dope with Willie once, and as the song says, I'll never smoke dope with Willie again. The man is a living legend of THC capacity.

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Carina Malatesta's avatar

🤣

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Mr. Raven's avatar

You smoked weed with Willie Nelson? You can't just tease that, you have to tell the whole story.

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Ohio Barbarian's avatar

It was in Luckenbach, Texas, with Willie & Waylon & the boys. They'd put on a huge outdoor concert there in the Texas Hill Country once a year in the 70s. A rancher let them use a pasture, and the fences were lined with kegs of Lone Star beer and there was plenty of grilling to go with the music.

After the concert, everybody could mingle around the stage with the band, and that's when it happened. What I can remember of it. Toby Keith knew what he was talking about when he wrote that song.

Willie Nelson also had a habit of showing up at this tavern called The Armadillo in Austin where he would buy the house a beer and play for free. I must have seen him play live at least half a dozen times back then.

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Raveen's avatar

'Trump is comfortable with working-class people. He’s the guy most of us would rather have a beer with.'

Yeah, it's that ability of such populist leaders to portray themselves as being connected and relatable to the average citizens that gives them a lot of endearment and support from the people, especially the working class.

If only supporters of such leaders could stop perceiving them as celebrities and blindly believing their so-called commitments, and instead judge them more critically by keeping score of their actual actions and policies (or lack thereof) during their political careers.

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Mr. Raven's avatar

Dude he is not voting for Trump, just noting he is more personable than Harris which is just true, shrug.

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Ohio Barbarian's avatar

Och! Well, that takes work and time, you see. Most Americans are either unable or unwilling to do much research on politicians. In fact, we're discouraged from doing our own research. It's an unfortunate fact, but still a fact.

I think you're being unfair to most Trump voters, though. While I'm not one of them, I know that most of them DON'T blindly believe everything he says. They like him, they know he bullshits a lot, but they don't care because they loathe both Democrat policies and hypocrisy and quite rationally see him as preferable to the only alternative who was selected for them.

The only people who think Trump voters are some monolithic, cultist bloc are in fact cultists themselves. Nobody projects better than a Democrat.

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djean111's avatar

And that is exactly why I went from being the Last Bernie Bro to being someone who would not open the door if Bernie was giving a speech in my front yard.

I am not voting for Trump - but there is literally no one I would vote for who represented today's Dem party.

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Raveen's avatar

Yeap, that's totally understandable.

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djean111's avatar

Yep.

Short answer - sometimes Trump does the decent thing. Lots of times, privately. IMO, Kamala never does the decent thing unless for political purposes, and truly loves punishing people.

Longer answer - cackling about being able to ruin a life with a false arrest. Chortling over locking up single moms if their kids cut school. That's the reason I first disliked Oprah, by the way, watched her show in Chicago, when she first started, I was home sick and was curious. She invited a group of single moms with truant kids to the show, said she wanted to help them, and then turned on them and said it was really all their fault. Vance had somewhat of a point saying childless women want to run the US their way.

The new Kamala ad narrated by Julia Roberts is the utterly fucking epitome of how dismissively Harris thinks of other women. And men. IMO. Evidently wimmen feel they must vote for Trump because their bullying hubbies tell them to - so it is okay to vote for Kamala and then lie about it. The ad is nauseating, and so is Roberts' tone.

Whatever happens on Tuesday, if Kamala "wins", I will actually be ashamed and alarmed that she is president. She will not be my president, not does she intend to be my president.

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Mr. Raven's avatar

Yeah I am going to be worried for both the 1st and 2nd Amendment if she wins, as she has openly threatened both.

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Pam2's avatar

Kamala is intelligent? Sorry, to me she comes across as a total moron.

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Ohio Barbarian's avatar

That was intended as sarcasm on my part.

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jbnw's avatar

Yes - I voted for Trump. It's for the possibility of peace in Ukraine. Whoever is in charge in the US keeps sending billions ($425 million yesterday) to a country without a President (according to the Constitution it should be the head of the Rada as Zelensky's term has long since expired).

Defense lines are being built 10 km (6 miles) from Dnipro - way too close to our flat. Still standing - the dam was hit and our street was renamed, but lucky - so far.

So - we'll see next week and hopefully in January.

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djean111's avatar

Yes, I agree. With Kamala there is no hope for peace whatsoever.

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Ohio Barbarian's avatar

And that's why I will not join people like Caitlin Johnstone in condemning anyone who votes for Trump as an immoral person only because Trump has thus far supported Israel.

Are Russian and Ukrainian lives not worth saving because Palestinians will continue to die? For that matter, there's a genocide going on in Sudan right now and nobody seems to care about that.

Moral posturing over these things serves only the posturer's ego, and alienates those who are her potentially invaluable allies in the near future.

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Mr. Raven's avatar

Caitlin Johnstone is a moron. She has passion on the Gaza issue and I admire that, but otherwise she is a basic bitch shitlib.

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Ohio Barbarian's avatar

I don't think she's a moron. Just an Australian with good intentions.

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Mr. Raven's avatar

Good intentions are not enough. She is one of least flexible most indoctrinated minds I have ever seen. Such a by the book shitlib.

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Ohio Barbarian's avatar

We must have a different definition of shitlib. All the ones I know are partisan Democrats, and Johnstone definitely is not that.

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jbnw's avatar

Wow - it must be close to election time. Looking at the comments we've lost much of our usual courtesy and respect.

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Ohio Barbarian's avatar

Yah, I had to play moderator on my own thread. I don't like removing comments. Sometimes I leave stupid ones up just for posterity. But if you say 1/6/2021 was a coup attempt, or Russia interfered in our elections, or that all Jews need to be whatevered because they are Jews, or that Muslims want to kill us all, my vast reservoir of patience on those things has been exhausted.

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The Revolution Continues's avatar

At least Trump understood that a "$2000 check" isn't only $1400 like Biden thought it was.

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Ohio Barbarian's avatar

So do my wife and I! The Democrats owe us $600 each as far as we're concerned. No, factor in inflation since then and make that $800 each.

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MizzGrizz's avatar

I don’t see Trump as having that much humanity though.He’s a complete narcissist.Meaning he can fake it,he can simulate emotion,but what he does isn’t real.

The Camel is robotic.She can’t even fake imitating a human being.

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