Alternate histories are as difficult to see as the future.
In this case, however, when I contemplate all of the possible outcomes I can imagine in a world where the Soviet Union collapsed in World War II, the one we actually got is preferable to any of them.
I am therefore grateful to all of those people who made that happen.
That's one of those dark alternate histories. There are many others, including some where the US is unconquered and there is a Cold War with the Nazis, but even the happier scenarios are pretty damned dark.
I implied no such thing. I am saying that the Soviet Union would have collapsed without a significant amount of that aid. Does the effort of all those who made the Soviet victory possible, as acknowledged by Joe Stalin himself, not count because a loan was involved? Because it wasn't given away for free?
Who the fuck cares? People died getting that material to the Soviets, who would have died in even larger numbers without it, but that doesn't matter to you.
That's the sort of doctrinaire thinking that makes Marxists, or just people who see America as Always Bad, look silly.
OTOH, I thought it went without saying that everyone knew the Soviets lost over 20 million people in that war, and I suppose it was silly of me to think I could not mention it for once in a post without being accused of saying the USA won the war all by itself by somebody.
Only 5 US vessels (Liberty Ships) took part in the Arctic Convoys.
The heavy lifting was done by proxy…with the majority of US material being shifted by the British Merchant Marine … long before the US…who had been sitting on its hands (just like WW1) decided to get involved.
Only 5 US Liberty ships made port in Murmansk? Why are you calling out carrier ships?Where do you think the contents of all the British ships originated from.
And Murmansk was not the only USSR port recieving US WWII supply shipments.
Check out WWII USA shipping to Vladivostok? Over 400,000 railroad cars worth of supplies and war materiel were landed there, mostly via USA Liberty ships/merchant marine.
Japan was not at war with the Soviet Union and didn't interfere with shipping into Vladivostok, where Russian workers loaded up the supplies on the Trans-Siberian Railroad.
Yes, US manufacturers made huge profits. Would you rather have had the American capitalists allow the Soviet Union to fall? Because that was the other choice then.
1. Few realize that WWII Lend Lease Program to Britain and USSR was a loan, not a supportive gift. Britain finished paying off its debt [plus interst] in 2006. Russia, on behalf of its previous incarnation as the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics also finished paying its Lend-Lease debt plus interest in 2006. Those who think US and NATO aid to Ukraine has been gratis are mistaken. Eventually, Ukraine will be expected to pay it back even if doing so further impoverishes its population.
2. I first learned of the Murmansk Run in 1978 from a retired U.S. merchant marine. He described the voyages, which were made as convoys, as very dangerous, often coming under attack from German U-Boats. He was justly proud of his contribution to the defeat of Nazi Germany.
Sure, it was a loan. I thought I'd focus on the actual WORK that went into it for a change. I never did say it was free. I guess I just assumed everybody knew Lend-Lease could not possibly mean it was free just by looking at the words. Silly me, again.
Never even thought you’d said it. I was speaking generally, about what I think most people assume about the recent aid to Ukraine. I am appreciative of you bringing this piece of history forward. My high school history book mentioned Lend Lease, emphasizing the part that went to the UK and not discussing payback. I think most Americans, if they remember it at all, add it unconsciously to their burnished internal image of how great we are. Therefore, the way you brought this up was both timely and provided a useful perspective. So thanks!
And you're right about what most people assume. Lend-Lease was part smoke-and-mirrors to placate an isolationist public, part bribe to the capitalist manufacturers to gear up for war, and an incredible logistical accomplishment by literally millions of people working toward a common goal.
It's that last I think is most important for Russians and Americans to remember now.
I would be astonished (or sad) if everyone in the entire world did not know that the US government, especially the current version, never does anything for free. And the interest rates are hideous, whether in money or resources.
"We have far more in common with each other than we have fundamental differences. "
Amen to that! It is amazing how quickly the "Red Scare" began after WWII and was developed during the 1950s... If you look at films and listen to radio programs made during the war, you hear nothing but praise for the brave Soviet fighters. The capitalists (like McCarthy) really had to work hard to brainwash everyday Americans into fearing our former ally!
If you remember there was a drought and grain shortages in Russia during the 1970s, you might recall that Jimmy Carter made a sale of grain to the Soviet Union. Some was shipped out of Toledo's port. I recall seeing the big ships there. I recall older farmers in my dad's congregation complaining about "Feeding the Reds" but my father wisely told them, "They're God's children, too, and besides, you're getting top dollar for your grain." That shut them up (for a bit).
As someone else said, that was Nixon, not Carter, but it doesn't invalidate your point. All that 1950s propaganda did faze my parents into never telling me Grandpa was a Communist, but they took me to movies like Dr. Zhivago and Nicholas and Alexandra and explained to a small boy why extreme inequality of wealth is a Bad Thing.
My mother also told me that if it wasn't for the Russians, I'd be spending my summers in a Hitler Youth camp, and I HATED anything remotely like that--I couldn't stand a summer camp run by the Episcopal Church--so early on I was grateful to them for THAT.
Then I became curious about Russia, studied their history, and concluded that they are a great people who have no business being our adversaries, much less our enemies. It is completely unnecessary.
Not much of a history buff so thanks for sharing these facts. It was all new to me. Cooperation so much more of the human experience than the devastation of war.
I was aware of this part of history, I have to say, acknowledgement of actions like this are generally not brought to the forefront when the world at large recounts 'history'. While the USSR was generally demonised in the west, there are some of us who can also positively acknowledge its contribution to the world we live in today. Here's an example; it's assistance to India during its various tribulations with China and Pakistan, while the collective west was very active in its support for Pakistan (this had it's echoes in the recent past when India steadfastly persisted in buying Russian oil etc despite all the threats from the west - India did not forget !!!).
Did the Lend Lease action balance all the evil perpetrated by the US since ? - it most certainly does not !! and a just world would definitely regard the US as being criminally responsible for the genocide in Palesting - EVERY bit as Israel.
No, Lend-Lease was World War II, and it doesn't justify the completely unnecessary Cold War. My point was not to talk about how great America was for doing this, but about what everybody involved with the growing and making and transportation of so much material that the Germans literally couldn't believe it while it was happening.
I think it was a magnificent accomplishment by lots of very ordinary people.
This is a part of rarely discussed WW2 history, except in the corners of heavy academic books. Even though most American weapons were rated poorly by Russians, the trucks were well-liked. I heard the American military rations were also received well but even less reported. Americans did all that not out of love for Russia, but for US own interests. Still, it is an excellent example to show that superpower can cooperate WHEN IT IS NOT A ZERO-SUM GAME. Given that the whole Game Theory started from the USA, future conflicts can be predicted. By the way, another rarely reported subject is the sacrifices of civilian mariners who perished in the sea transport through the more dangerous but significantly faster route of the Barentz Sea.
Yes, a lot of the tanks we, sent them were junk, except for the Shermans that we started sending them in...1944? And they were no match for the Soviet T-34. I focused on the food and the trucks because they made the most critical difference according to the Russians themselves.
The Barents Sea...yes, there the danger wasn't the Japanese or the Germans, it was the sea itself and, having sailed it in a destroyer in November myself, I can testify that was no joke.
The American solution was just to ship so much stuff that most of it had to get through due to sheer volume alone.
And this zero sum game theory is garbage. In an age where nuclear weapons exist, it is simply no longer any kind of viable strategy.
It was in November. I was an electronics tech, so I got to climb up the mast in heaving seas and knock the ice off the radio and radar antennas so the things would work.
I'd look down, and see ocean, deck, ocean, deck...it was fricking COLD but I'd brought along a civilian sub-Arctic parka and a Russian-style fur hat with the ear flaps, so I was the only one doing that who stayed halfway warm. I wouldn't let anyone else use them, not even the officers.
It wasn't MY fault I went to a surplus store in San Antonio, in the Texas summer, long before I joined the Navy and bought those things because I was moving to Colorado, and looked at a map when they announced where we would be going.
Fun times. And people wonder why I didn't re-enlist in that particular canoe club.
The 17 point decline in Americans' negative perception of Russia (or increased positive perception) over the last two years - while we've been force-fed the notion that Russia and Putin in particular are responsible for all the world's evils - gives me some hope about my fellow Americans.
I think it's an indication of the power of the Internet. More Americans are finding their own news sources instead of relying on what is spoon-fed to them, and are thinking for themselves.
That almost certainly has to be the reason for this shift. The M$M sure hasn't been advocating that point of view.
"Neither nation controls anything that is existential to the other, and they don’t exactly share a long mutual border."
I would disagree with you on the control. We remain reliant on oil, and either need Russian heavy crude or an alternative. We definitely need theirs to hit the market. We also need their enriched uranium. The same for several other raw materials at this time. We -might- be able to source them other places or at home, but it would take several years to build up the infrastructure, mines, processing plants, etc.
I don't see why we would need Russian oil when all we have to do is to have a mutually beneficial relationship with Venezuela. Good point on the minerals, though; I hadn't thought of those.
Regardless, the Russians are certainly willing to trade, but only as equals, not as a vassal state, and I don't blame them.
Exactly. We can do without their oil by going to others, but likely not without minerals. Definitely not without the enriched uranium - maybe buying through proxies at markup, if they don't do what they do and threaten to cut off anyone selling to us.
It's all in the details. And they definitely are asking for the respect, as you say.
We'll see. They also wanted to be a big player in the nuclear plant field, but are having the Chinese build things, and it was a regular salt water plant. I wouldn't give much credit till it happens, and it might still be years out.
They're waiting to dig up an estimated $11 trillion minerals in Ukraine, though the largest coke coal and lithium deposits will be taken by the Russians soon. Venezuela is dying one cut at a time, and Argentina doesn't realise the same is happening to them.
Yes. We have some substantial of them here, but it's always a "Not in my Backyard!" game. Even after all the greenies say they want the end results, they don't want the work to make it happen.
Thank you, OB. Had no idea about any of this history.
Thank you, more Americans need to know about this. Liked and shared.
If the Soviets had fallen, it just would have meant Cold War with Nazi Germany instead of Soviet Russia.
Alternate histories are as difficult to see as the future.
In this case, however, when I contemplate all of the possible outcomes I can imagine in a world where the Soviet Union collapsed in World War II, the one we actually got is preferable to any of them.
I am therefore grateful to all of those people who made that happen.
@Brettbaker
It might have meant worse than that outcome for the USA.
See "The Man in the High Castle". The Philip K. Dick
book, not the most recent (dumbed down) video series of the same name.
https://read.amazon.com/sample/B005MZN2B2?f=1&l=en_US&r=e8ccbca3&rid=521B6XZM80NAXBP99DS5&sid=146-1165571-1161623&cid=A39NJMOJTX1THZ&ref_=litb_m
That's one of those dark alternate histories. There are many others, including some where the US is unconquered and there is a Cold War with the Nazis, but even the happier scenarios are pretty damned dark.
You are implying that the US of A beat the Nazis.
They did not.
Russia did.
Russia had to pay for all of that assistance…as did Britain.
I implied no such thing. I am saying that the Soviet Union would have collapsed without a significant amount of that aid. Does the effort of all those who made the Soviet victory possible, as acknowledged by Joe Stalin himself, not count because a loan was involved? Because it wasn't given away for free?
Who the fuck cares? People died getting that material to the Soviets, who would have died in even larger numbers without it, but that doesn't matter to you.
That's the sort of doctrinaire thinking that makes Marxists, or just people who see America as Always Bad, look silly.
OTOH, I thought it went without saying that everyone knew the Soviets lost over 20 million people in that war, and I suppose it was silly of me to think I could not mention it for once in a post without being accused of saying the USA won the war all by itself by somebody.
Only 5 US vessels (Liberty Ships) took part in the Arctic Convoys.
The heavy lifting was done by proxy…with the majority of US material being shifted by the British Merchant Marine … long before the US…who had been sitting on its hands (just like WW1) decided to get involved.
@Per Terram
Only 5 US Liberty ships made port in Murmansk? Why are you calling out carrier ships?Where do you think the contents of all the British ships originated from.
And Murmansk was not the only USSR port recieving US WWII supply shipments.
Check out WWII USA shipping to Vladivostok? Over 400,000 railroad cars worth of supplies and war materiel were landed there, mostly via USA Liberty ships/merchant marine.
Yup, Japan put pay to all that.
Mind you those US Manufacturers did make a healthy packet out of it.
War Is A Racket.
Japan was not at war with the Soviet Union and didn't interfere with shipping into Vladivostok, where Russian workers loaded up the supplies on the Trans-Siberian Railroad.
Yes, US manufacturers made huge profits. Would you rather have had the American capitalists allow the Soviet Union to fall? Because that was the other choice then.
1. Few realize that WWII Lend Lease Program to Britain and USSR was a loan, not a supportive gift. Britain finished paying off its debt [plus interst] in 2006. Russia, on behalf of its previous incarnation as the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics also finished paying its Lend-Lease debt plus interest in 2006. Those who think US and NATO aid to Ukraine has been gratis are mistaken. Eventually, Ukraine will be expected to pay it back even if doing so further impoverishes its population.
2. I first learned of the Murmansk Run in 1978 from a retired U.S. merchant marine. He described the voyages, which were made as convoys, as very dangerous, often coming under attack from German U-Boats. He was justly proud of his contribution to the defeat of Nazi Germany.
Sure, it was a loan. I thought I'd focus on the actual WORK that went into it for a change. I never did say it was free. I guess I just assumed everybody knew Lend-Lease could not possibly mean it was free just by looking at the words. Silly me, again.
Never even thought you’d said it. I was speaking generally, about what I think most people assume about the recent aid to Ukraine. I am appreciative of you bringing this piece of history forward. My high school history book mentioned Lend Lease, emphasizing the part that went to the UK and not discussing payback. I think most Americans, if they remember it at all, add it unconsciously to their burnished internal image of how great we are. Therefore, the way you brought this up was both timely and provided a useful perspective. So thanks!
And you're right about what most people assume. Lend-Lease was part smoke-and-mirrors to placate an isolationist public, part bribe to the capitalist manufacturers to gear up for war, and an incredible logistical accomplishment by literally millions of people working toward a common goal.
It's that last I think is most important for Russians and Americans to remember now.
Agreed
I would be astonished (or sad) if everyone in the entire world did not know that the US government, especially the current version, never does anything for free. And the interest rates are hideous, whether in money or resources.
Yes. Some of the things I assume just go without saying clearly don't with many people.
Good luck Ukraine paying back anything with their eastern industrial might changing hands. For the good in my opinion.
"Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia"
Thanks for the illuminating post. Tom
So, basically, Spam saved the world! :*)
Thanks for this forgotten story!
Liked and shared.
"We have far more in common with each other than we have fundamental differences. "
Amen to that! It is amazing how quickly the "Red Scare" began after WWII and was developed during the 1950s... If you look at films and listen to radio programs made during the war, you hear nothing but praise for the brave Soviet fighters. The capitalists (like McCarthy) really had to work hard to brainwash everyday Americans into fearing our former ally!
If you remember there was a drought and grain shortages in Russia during the 1970s, you might recall that Jimmy Carter made a sale of grain to the Soviet Union. Some was shipped out of Toledo's port. I recall seeing the big ships there. I recall older farmers in my dad's congregation complaining about "Feeding the Reds" but my father wisely told them, "They're God's children, too, and besides, you're getting top dollar for your grain." That shut them up (for a bit).
The USSR wheat deal was 1971 - 1973. That was the infamous period where global prices went up 30 - 40%, Jimmy Carter was not in charge.
----------
Sammy the baker had oodles of grain
'Till he sold it abroad for capital gain
Now sing for your supper you pitiful oaf
To the tune of about a dollar per loaf
-Mad Magazine, ca. 1975
Well, I was a kid so I couldn't remember exactly the dates, but I do believe there were some later sales.
As someone else said, that was Nixon, not Carter, but it doesn't invalidate your point. All that 1950s propaganda did faze my parents into never telling me Grandpa was a Communist, but they took me to movies like Dr. Zhivago and Nicholas and Alexandra and explained to a small boy why extreme inequality of wealth is a Bad Thing.
My mother also told me that if it wasn't for the Russians, I'd be spending my summers in a Hitler Youth camp, and I HATED anything remotely like that--I couldn't stand a summer camp run by the Episcopal Church--so early on I was grateful to them for THAT.
Then I became curious about Russia, studied their history, and concluded that they are a great people who have no business being our adversaries, much less our enemies. It is completely unnecessary.
Not much of a history buff so thanks for sharing these facts. It was all new to me. Cooperation so much more of the human experience than the devastation of war.
Thanks, great article, loved it...
I was aware of this part of history, I have to say, acknowledgement of actions like this are generally not brought to the forefront when the world at large recounts 'history'. While the USSR was generally demonised in the west, there are some of us who can also positively acknowledge its contribution to the world we live in today. Here's an example; it's assistance to India during its various tribulations with China and Pakistan, while the collective west was very active in its support for Pakistan (this had it's echoes in the recent past when India steadfastly persisted in buying Russian oil etc despite all the threats from the west - India did not forget !!!).
Did the Lend Lease action balance all the evil perpetrated by the US since ? - it most certainly does not !! and a just world would definitely regard the US as being criminally responsible for the genocide in Palesting - EVERY bit as Israel.
No, Lend-Lease was World War II, and it doesn't justify the completely unnecessary Cold War. My point was not to talk about how great America was for doing this, but about what everybody involved with the growing and making and transportation of so much material that the Germans literally couldn't believe it while it was happening.
I think it was a magnificent accomplishment by lots of very ordinary people.
This is a part of rarely discussed WW2 history, except in the corners of heavy academic books. Even though most American weapons were rated poorly by Russians, the trucks were well-liked. I heard the American military rations were also received well but even less reported. Americans did all that not out of love for Russia, but for US own interests. Still, it is an excellent example to show that superpower can cooperate WHEN IT IS NOT A ZERO-SUM GAME. Given that the whole Game Theory started from the USA, future conflicts can be predicted. By the way, another rarely reported subject is the sacrifices of civilian mariners who perished in the sea transport through the more dangerous but significantly faster route of the Barentz Sea.
Yes, a lot of the tanks we, sent them were junk, except for the Shermans that we started sending them in...1944? And they were no match for the Soviet T-34. I focused on the food and the trucks because they made the most critical difference according to the Russians themselves.
The Barents Sea...yes, there the danger wasn't the Japanese or the Germans, it was the sea itself and, having sailed it in a destroyer in November myself, I can testify that was no joke.
The American solution was just to ship so much stuff that most of it had to get through due to sheer volume alone.
And this zero sum game theory is garbage. In an age where nuclear weapons exist, it is simply no longer any kind of viable strategy.
In a destroyer? Hopefully not in the winter. But that is still an unusual experience.
It was in November. I was an electronics tech, so I got to climb up the mast in heaving seas and knock the ice off the radio and radar antennas so the things would work.
I'd look down, and see ocean, deck, ocean, deck...it was fricking COLD but I'd brought along a civilian sub-Arctic parka and a Russian-style fur hat with the ear flaps, so I was the only one doing that who stayed halfway warm. I wouldn't let anyone else use them, not even the officers.
It wasn't MY fault I went to a surplus store in San Antonio, in the Texas summer, long before I joined the Navy and bought those things because I was moving to Colorado, and looked at a map when they announced where we would be going.
Fun times. And people wonder why I didn't re-enlist in that particular canoe club.
:-)
The 17 point decline in Americans' negative perception of Russia (or increased positive perception) over the last two years - while we've been force-fed the notion that Russia and Putin in particular are responsible for all the world's evils - gives me some hope about my fellow Americans.
I think it's an indication of the power of the Internet. More Americans are finding their own news sources instead of relying on what is spoon-fed to them, and are thinking for themselves.
That almost certainly has to be the reason for this shift. The M$M sure hasn't been advocating that point of view.
"Neither nation controls anything that is existential to the other, and they don’t exactly share a long mutual border."
I would disagree with you on the control. We remain reliant on oil, and either need Russian heavy crude or an alternative. We definitely need theirs to hit the market. We also need their enriched uranium. The same for several other raw materials at this time. We -might- be able to source them other places or at home, but it would take several years to build up the infrastructure, mines, processing plants, etc.
I don't see why we would need Russian oil when all we have to do is to have a mutually beneficial relationship with Venezuela. Good point on the minerals, though; I hadn't thought of those.
Regardless, the Russians are certainly willing to trade, but only as equals, not as a vassal state, and I don't blame them.
Exactly. We can do without their oil by going to others, but likely not without minerals. Definitely not without the enriched uranium - maybe buying through proxies at markup, if they don't do what they do and threaten to cut off anyone selling to us.
It's all in the details. And they definitely are asking for the respect, as you say.
Saudi Arabia's intending enriching uranium for the market. There are many moves afoot.
We'll see. They also wanted to be a big player in the nuclear plant field, but are having the Chinese build things, and it was a regular salt water plant. I wouldn't give much credit till it happens, and it might still be years out.
They're waiting to dig up an estimated $11 trillion minerals in Ukraine, though the largest coke coal and lithium deposits will be taken by the Russians soon. Venezuela is dying one cut at a time, and Argentina doesn't realise the same is happening to them.
Yes. We have some substantial of them here, but it's always a "Not in my Backyard!" game. Even after all the greenies say they want the end results, they don't want the work to make it happen.
Thank goodness the pristine goodness of Greenland is NIMBY-free.
The American hatred of Russia is just another fabrication by our narrative managers stoking ill intent.